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Spying on Students: School-Issued Devices and Student Privacy (eff.org)
92 points by kawera on Aug 26, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 32 comments


I used to work in school IT and had products pitched to us constantly that would be basically malware/RATs to spy on students. We could purchase anything that would help us look at Facebook messages, emails, documents/picture, anything really. Our department went against it for a few reasons:

- If you have this knowledge you need to monitor it. If a student is writing about killing themselves in a document on their machine then they follow through and we had access to that knowledge it becomes our problem.

- Opens us up to far more knowledge than we had before, knowledge we didn't necessarily want. Kids are kids. We're trying to make adults and should give them a certain amount of free reign to learn and make mistakes without us watching them all the time.

- Our IT department just didn't feel that it was the best idea and agreed with it on moral/ethic grounds.

EDIT: I should also clarify that all of these tools went beyond what we would need to administer devices from an IT standpoint. Our other tools were more stop a malicious PDF than read little Johnny's email.


Reminds me of a Pennsylvania school "WebcamGate" in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School...

The school's IT dept had a program to control the student's laptop camera so if it was lost or stolen they could take a picture and see where it was and with who.

It didn't end well.


Yep, you're totally right. Different country and different product but if anyone is unsure what features these tools have available they should read that wikipedia page.

We all knew at some point it would be used inappropriately and we'd all be responsible in some way. I think schools and their departments are right to move away from these types of tools. They're teenage kids, not some domestic terrorist with an enormous network.


Created a throwaway just for this as I'd like to remain anonymous. I'm currently in high school, though I picked up programming early. My school decided to purchase a bunch of "educational" tablets for the student populace a while back (wasting a million or so in the process). All in all, they were a disaster. Not only were they not used for their intended purpose, they were a huge distraction in the classroom. Kids would be watching youtube videos, and worse, through the various proxy sites the school could never seem to block, all when they should have been paying attention. I wouldn't be surprised if performance dropped as a result.

That aside, I couldn't agree more with the issues in the report. There was no opt-out: no tablet meant no grades. You'd be a fool to expect any privacy. It was obvious school officials had some form of remote access: they could in theory lock the screen (this was easily circumvented by going offline), but to what degree, we couldn't be sure. For all I knew, they could have live access to the camera and microphone.

From this experience, it seems pretty clear that just throwing technology at students in hopes it helps them "learn" isn't going to work. The money wasted on this program could have been put to much better use, training teachers and actually buying books.


Computers have been heralded as the magic answer to teaching kids for 40 years now. There have been no positive results yet. It's not hard to see why - putting computers in the classroom is like putting labor saving devices in the gym.

Learning requires focused effort and work, there's just no way around it.


I think it's because people are attempting to somehow "improve" the current educational methods using techno magic assuming that "if we do the stand-in-front-of-a-blackboard thing except with tablets" is going to lead to any sort of an improvement.


Does anyone here have experience with approaching their districts?

I had a meeting last year with three assistant superintendents to discuss issues related to student privacy. New York has a student privacy law (§2-d of EDC Title 1 Article 1) passed as part of the Common Core Reform Act that establishes a Parents' Bill of Rights for Data Privacy and Security, which must be completed 120 days after its effective date of 12/08/2016. Among other things, this document must list all third parties to which student PII is provided, for what purpose, and state that they take the proper precautions to protect student data. That date---04/07/2017---has since passed. Unfortunately, my district (and possibly the entire county, Erie) is far behind.

We also discussed school devices---they're moving toward a device-per-child model---and we expressed to one-another our concerns. The EFF's resources were essential in my research and provided resources for the district as well.

The EFF was kind enough to put me in touch with a lawyer practicing in NY with an interest in student privacy to provide pro bono counsel as I figure out the best way to move forward. I'm going to try my hardest to keep on good terms with the district; going the route of issuing FOIA requests and such is a last resort. Finding other concerned parents in my district is likely my next step.

My oldest son is entering first grade this year, so this is a fairly urgent priority for me.


Why is there so little scrutiny over Chromebooks in schools? Every time this topic is raised, people rush to Google's defence. Yes, I know Google doesn't create advertising profiles from student data. This doesn't make their data collection behaviour defensible. They are still capturing student data in staggering quantities.

Even if the data is "anonymous" (a meaningless term) and aggregated in some form, this is still an unimaginably huge quantity of student data that Google have captured and saved for themselves.

Rather than ask what kind of tracking is acceptable, we should instead ask: why is tracking of students (who have no choice in the matter) even considered acceptable in the first place?


OT: Anyone know why a comment in this post went dead in less than 4 minutes? It was pretty substantive and didn't contain anything inflammatory, although the author did say he was using a throwaway.

link to comment (you need enable showdead in settings to read it): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15108272


Somebody probably flagged it. It's a new account, so it's likely it could quickly be flagged into oblivion.


Was the comment ever alive? If the commenter has had other accounts banned, HN sometimes has more thorough methods of banning a user (I suspect by IP, but I'm not sure the details of the implementation). If you think the comment is worthwhile and have enough karma, you can vouch for it.


New accounts comments can be autoflagged for various reasons.

Vouch for it, as we can see someone has. The system works.


>Vouch for it, as we can see someone has. The system works.

Can you even do that? I thought flag/vouch only works for links.


As 'aaron695 said, it works for comments as well. If you want to confirm, turn on showdead and view some comments. You should see a vouch link.


yeah, i see it now. you have to click into a comment before it shows up.


For some terrible reason, societies tend to believe that the younger you are, the less deserving of rights you are. Even rights such as this, where having privacy would carry less risk than an older person perhaps seeing dangerous things from the younger people. They still do the wrong thing and rob the younger people of their human rights. (Dangerous here means that in most countries, if you eyes or ears detect lewd behavior under a certain age, you go to jail.)


Kids should have absolutely no expectation of privacy.


Are you saying they shouldn't trust anyone to protect their privacy, that I can agree with, or that they don't have a right to it?

I've been teaching my kid he has a right to privacy since the day he asked about having a baby monitor in his room. I told him why it's there, how to turn it off and that we'll take it out completely if he ever wants it gone. If his school forced this on him, I'd explain to him why not to carry it every where he goes and why he should never use it for personal communication.


http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CRC.aspx

> Article 16

> 1. No child shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his or her honour and reputation.

> 2. The child has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.


I've tried to educate my kids about this. I've told them since an early age, that there is no privacy in any interaction with the school: Even a well meaning attempt to protect their information, in the absence of sufficient expertise, is futile.

Famous hacks and releases of private information, reported in the news, are good teachable moments.

My advice is that they can still get good grades while sticking with "safe" opinions and topics of discussion. This is also good preparation for corporate life.


It's basically the same as a corporate environment but with lower stakes and less funding to ensure competency.

Telling children they are entitled to privacy is setting them up for a world that will surely disappoint them.


Kids are human people. Why should some of us have no expectation of privacy, while others do?


I would argue that kids are more proto-human being than fully fledged human being, which is why they need education to start with.

Also, why, if they are human being, are they subjected to lesser criminal penalties than "adults" ?


> Also, why, if they are human being, are they subjected to lesser criminal penalties than "adults" ?

Yeah that's something that we really need to fix, although aren't there many cases of minors being charged as adults?


Given the unpopularity of my other comments, I don't think trialling children as adults will be popular either.


Why, and from whom? Their parents? Their school? Corporations?


I'd argue, at foremost, from their parents. [and yes, I was very aware of this fact to the extent that my first real-world application of programming was to automate obfuscate my browsing history as a teenager.]


Their parents, and their school during class hours.


You forgot the sarcasm /s.


They're going to disagree, and frankly in this arena, they're far better equipped than most of the people doing the spying. The worst kind of tyrant is an ineffective one.


You've been downvoted a little; My guess is that people are reading your post as "Kids don't deserve privacy"

But that's not what you actually said, and I'm not so sure that it's what you actually meant. Could you elaborate a bit?


The downvote might be related to the current pedestal our society currently place "kids" on, as harmless pure creatures adults shall bow to.




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